Now it is obvious that unbelievers deny Christy but they have not "crept in" nor do they pervert grace. They deny everything because the things of God are foolishness to them. She ends this nonsensical point by saying something wholly obvious and not germane to the discussion. Of course false teachers are unbelievers. If that was her opening point it would have only received an amen from me but she insisted that Jesus Christ said something He most certainly did not say. That point has been long lost in the morass she has created in trying to defend the indefensible. Her deception now becomes more evident:
"You made your point, it's unconvincing, and I disagree. If you want to think that false teachers aren't unbelievers, that's your choice. I haven't "mangled" Scripture and will continue to evaluate doctrine based on the whole of Scripture and not proof-texting. BTW, the devil is working in all unbelievers, including false teachers, as the NT writers affirm." - Betty
"Clever but deceptive. Now you are mangling what I said and I assume on purpose. I never said that false teachers are not unbelievers but you take a huge and absurd leap to then assume that everywhere someone speaks about false teachers you can apply it also to unbelievers. Exposition does not work like that. What is hysterical is the only one proof texting is you. If you wish to continue to make a fool of yourself have at it. No disagreement on your last statement, of course nowhere had I said otherwise." -- Anthony
Now I ask you beloved; where did I say that false teachers are not unbelievers? That's right; I never said that. The truly sad thing is that she has engaged in the very thing she accuses me of, proof texting. When she got caught misusing the text she dug her heels in and refused to even consider correction. This is a very dangerous mindset beloved for all of us. Jesus says when you convince yourself that your darkness is light, how deep is that darkness! This brings us to the key verses for today. This is God teaching us to not engage in foolish and ignorant discussions which can only lead to quarrels. While my intentions were good for the first couple of exchanges I should have left it there. God does not care about my intentions; only my obedience. This is the blueprint for a foolish and ignorant discussion. The initial statement was foolish and her defense was ignorant of scripture but more importantly, not willing to consider being corrected. Once that is established in it is incumbent upon us to not partake in the quarrel to come. I should have planted the seed of the true word of God and walk away, allowing God to be God. Unfortunately, this went one more exchange deep:
'"I took your words at face value, not "on purpose." You said: "The verse in question is most definitely NOT speaking about unbelievers." False teachers ARE unbelievers, so you are wrong. Anthony, I know you mean well, but you're only digging yourself deeper here. You have no scripture to back up your idea that Jude's words cannot apply to unbelievers, even though Jude is speaking of unbelievers. I called you out on it and now you're probably embarrassed. That about sums up this "straining a gnat, swallowing a camel" discussion. How'd that camel go down? ;-)' - Betty
"Save your faux condescension and consider the people you mislead. You have been corrected multiple times yet continue to stomp your feet like a spoiled child and insist on your way. God does not work that way and neither does expositing His Word. You are wrong on every level of this conversation and I beg you to seek someone in authority to clarify it for you since you clearly will not listen to me. Take care." - Anthony
"C'mon. You haven't "corrected" me. I'm not wrong and I think you know it. No reputable theologian would argue your point. You tried to float the idea that everything Jude wrote could never ever apply to anyone but false teachers. Then you said false teachers aren't unbelievers, and then you denied you'd said that. That's it in a nutshell." - Betty
Do you remember what the initial disagreement was even about? It was that John 10:10 is speaking about false teachers and not speaking about the devil. The verse she is now speaking about is somewhere in Jude and I dare anyone to read it and declare it is speaking about unbelievers. It simply is not. The heading for the entire subsection is even entitled "Dealing with False Teachers." Betty declares I am wrong for a position I never even took. Jude is not speaking about unbelievers but she remains unmoved because she never even considered that she was wrong. Her misuse and misunderstanding of the camel and gnat verse shows that this is how she treats scripture. Like it is her personal plaything to mold and shape into how she feels it can be applied. It is not surprising since this is how modern churchianity teaches people. That the bible is all about you. How you feel. What has happened in your life. How it can applied to your problems. Except that is not how we should treat the word of God. It is always about Jesus and His story. The verses apply to Him and His Gospel.